Interviews
Exclusive Safer Gambling/Harm Prevention Roundtable
The latest EGBA reports have indicated that not only are members sending more safer gambling messages than ever before, but also that these messages are becoming increasingly personalised. How important do you think it is for gambling companies to keep looking at the topic of safer gambling/harm prevention and finding more tailored ways to reach their at-risk customers?
Oliver Niner (ON): PandaScore is on the supplier side of the industry, but responsible gambling is very important to the business and everyone who works for it. We go to great lengths to ensure that the data that we provide to our operator partners allows them to do the best job they can of looking after their players, that their activity can be monitored and that any potential problem gambling issues can be picked up early. It’s not our responsibility to protect players, but we do everything we can to facilitate safe gaming. This includes ensuring that all participants in the esports matches that we provide data and odds for are over the age of 18 and we also have a blacklist of matches and tournaments where the likelihood of collusion and other issues are high. This means that we only provide data and odds for matches that are fair and where all players are over the age of 18. Personalisation is a must for operators across all areas of their business, and responsible gambling is no different. If you really want to engage a customer, you need to connect with them on a personal level.
Alex Iaroshenko (AI): Having a solid policy in place for safer gambling/harm prevention and paying close attention to related technology such as Fraud Detection Systems (FDS) are two of the most important things an iGaming business needs to do. When they can prove to the industry that they’re focused on these matters and are committed to developing more sophisticated ways of dealing with at-risk players, their business obviously becomes a lot more trustworthy and they’re likely to attract greater cooperation from companies on the B2B side in future. From the B2C side, speaking openly about safer gambling and how you intend to protect your players also improves your standing in the eyes of bettors as it reassures them they’re playing in an environment where their best interests are being looked after.
What is it about personalised messaging that you think makes it more impactful with customers? Does following betting behaviour closely and responding to events in real time potentially enable gambling operators to intervene at the exact moment where customers are most at risk?
ON: So this isn’t really in PandaScore’s wheelhouse but I am a firm believer that personalised messaging and closely monitoring betting behaviour are highly effective when it comes to improving responsible gambling. There are powerful technologies in the market that allow for real-time monitoring of player behaviour, with the first sign of problem play flagged, often automatically. So long as the operator has the right processes in place, individual players can then be engaged and supported before it becomes a major issue for them. As a provider, we do everything we can to support our operator partners in their efforts to protect players – as mentioned above, this includes providing them with the best data only from tournaments and matches where players are over the age of 18. Ultimately, responsible gambling requires commitment from all stakeholders and as a supplier of data and odds, we are doing everything we can to contribute to this effort.
AI: Absolutely. By closely following a customer’s betting activity and responding to certain “red flag” behaviours in real time, gambling operators can potentially intervene at the precise moment where their messaging will be at its most impactful. This is often referred to as responsible gambling or harm minimisation and has become a key part of overall safer gambling strategy, with many gambling regulatory authorities now requiring operators to issue these personalised interventions and use other RG measures to protect vulnerable customers. Generally speaking, a personalised message is always going to be more likely to get a customer’s attention than a generic one, and while this can be beneficial for safer gambling purposes, operators should ensure these tailored communications are used responsibly elsewhere and aren’t encouraging users to engage in harmful gambling behaviour.
In light of the above, how big of a role do you think AI has to play in improving the protection that’s offered to at-risk players? Presumably if gambling operators are able to monitor betting activity and issue appropriate safter gambling messaging automatically, it will eliminate human error and ensure that no players fall through the cracks when they’re at their most vulnerable?
ON: PandaScore is a big proponent of AI – so long as it is used in the right way – and we have embraced this technology and used it extensively when building our product offering. AI can absolutely be used to improve responsible gambling, especially when it comes to monitoring player behaviour and patterns to identify potentially at-risk players early. That said, AI needs to be combined with human oversight in order for it to be deployed responsibly and for operators to be able to leverage the full potential of the technology, especially when it comes to safe gaming. By combining humans and AI, the technology can be further developed and refined specifically for the purpose of safe gaming so that it keeps getting better at identifying potentially at-risk players and then delivering the right messaging at the right time.
AI: While AI can significantly enhance responsible gambling measures, it’s important to note that it should always be used in conjunction with human oversight and viewed through a lens that also takes ethical considerations into account. At this precise moment in time, human expertise remains crucial in interpreting AI-generated insights and using them to make decisions that balance player protection with a positive user experience. All AI systems must therefore be designed with transparency, fairness and privacy in mind to ensure they are used responsibly and ethically. Essentially, a good AI system should act as a reliable co-pilot that can track, inform and make recommendations when there’s a safer gambling issue, but it’s down to staff to interpret this data and decide the best course of action.
In terms of safer gambling, one of the most encouraging signs for the industry is that in addition to operators, the players themselves are also becoming more engaged with responsible gambling, with 30% voluntarily using safety tools like time outs, bet limits and self-exclusion. Do you think this shows operators are doing a good job in promoting these tools and making them easy to use?
ON: I think the majority of players are self-aware and understand the need to stay in control of their play. This is certainly the case with esports players and bettors, and if this continues to filter down into the wider gambling world then that’s absolutely a good thing. Of course, there is always more that can be done, and operators should be more proactive when it comes to responsible gambling. The market leaders are doing well in this regard and are setting a solid standard for others to follow. There is a lot that can be learned from the esports space, too. It is very much community-driven with players connecting via platforms such as Discord where they openly talk about their gaming activity in what they consider to be a safe environment. This will hopefully trickle down into traditional sports betting, providing operators with an opportunity to better engage players in an authentic way and share messages around safe gaming rather than pushing them at players, which is the case now.
AI: Ultimately, responsible gambling is a shared responsibility between operators and players. The former have an important role to play in providing necessary tools and resources to their customers, but the latter must then take the responsibility to use them wisely and seek help when they feel it’s necessary. As such, a collaborative process between the industry and its customers is key to fostering a safer and more responsible gambling environment; and the stats we’re seeing indicate this approach is starting to take root. So yes, operators should be given credit for promoting these tools and making them easy to use, but we must also praise customers for being responsible and taking control of their situations.
One of the many services available at BETBAZAR is KYC, which obviously assists clients in ensuring their depositors are of age and able to gamble responsibly. How important are services like KYC in helping operators quickly/reliably verify their customers so they can better protect them?
AI: KYC services are essential tools for operators in the gambling industry that allow them to verify the identity of their customers, prevent fraud, comply with regulations and promote responsible gambling. By implementing KYC processes, operators can better protect their customers, uphold the integrity of their platform and – in some cases – even prevent harmful gambling behaviour before it happens. The key to a good KYC process is having a system in place that enables the operator to get all of the data that they need approved and verified quickly, while not making things complicated for the user and discouraging them from completing their sign-up process. The tools that we provide at BETBAZAR certainly do just that, ensuring a seamless process for both the client and their customers
While safer gambling/harm prevention measures are obviously very important, do you think there needs to be a balance struck between protecting players and ensuring they’re not too restricted? It seems that if you impose too many checks, verification processes or controls on players gambling, you run the risk of driving them directly to unsafe sites with fewer regulations…
ON: There does need to be a balance. One way this can be achieved is to make improvements to the user experience and incorporate responsible gambling tools into that. The front-end experience has changed very little over the past five years or more, and there is space for operators and suppliers to pioneer new approaches here. Onboarding needs to be fast and frictionless, but with smart design, this can be achieved while bringing responsible gambling to the forefront. The underlying technology required for this is readily available, but most operators have focused their use of this on ensuring payments are rapid and bonuses personalised, rather than how to better integrate safe gaming into the overall player experience. A change in tack here could have a profound impact on safe gaming.
AI: Having overly stringent safer gambling/harm prevention measures can indeed drive players to unregulated or unsafe gambling sites, which can pose an even greater risk to their well-being than if the site they originally wanted to play at was a little more relaxed in the first place. As such, both regulators and operators must work together to ensure a suitable balance is struck between protecting players and maintaining a positive user experience. As mentioned above, KYC checks are essential but should be designed to be as seamless and non-intrusive as possible. Then, rather than solely relying on restrictions, operators should invest in educating players about responsible gambling practices and empower them to make their own decisions. To complement this, operators may also consider using a tiered system where customers choose the level of protection that best suits them.
Finally, is there anything that you think the online gambling industry in general should be doing differently when it comes to promoting safer gambling and harm prevention? Should there be a more open dialogue between regulators and operators when it comes to deciding policy/strategy?
ON: There should always be an open dialogue between regulators, operators and other stakeholders. Collaboration is key to progress, and this must come from the top down. Operators know they must protect players and are doing this, but there is always room for improvement. Esports is all about community and I think the wider gambling industry would do well to look to come up with community-led initiatives that bring players together and allow them to engage with them in a more authentic environment. They should also look to redeploy their technical capabilities into responsible gambling – they can profile players and segment them on a granular level for the purpose of marketing and bonusing, but are they really using these capabilities to be more benevolent and take player protection to the next level?
AI: As we’ve outlined above, there are several areas in which the online gambling industry could improve its approach to promoting safer gambling and harm prevention. These include increased transparency, enhanced education for players, greater collaboration with regulators – including research and data sharing – technological innovation and having regular audits and assessments of safer gambling practices to establish what’s working and what isn’t. At the end of the day, promoting safer gambling is a shared responsibility between operators, regulators and players, so by fostering an open dialogue, sharing data and insights and working together, the industry can create a safer, more responsible gambling environment that protects players’ well-being while preserving the integrity of the industry
Gary, as the CEO and founder of Wamba Technologies, can you shed some light on the inspiration behind developing the patented technology for “in-game wagering” in skill-based video games?
Right now there are approximately 500 million people around the world participating in Esports. These are people who are earning money by competing in video games. Unfortunately, the vast majority of these people are not competing online when money is involved because of the anonymity and the rampant cheating anonymity causes. Only the best are able to compete online and actually make money. Instead, the majority of gamers are traveling to physical locations and competing “in person” where opponents and skill levels can be verified. What’s crazy to me is that down to every last man, woman, and child, these people DO compete against each other online for fun with the very same games that they are traveling to compete in for money. This shows us that these players desire to compete online, however they just don’t have a safe, user-friendly option with which to do so. This very issue is what inspired us to build a product that will give users that online, “compete-from-my-own-home” experience that they are looking for where they can pay an entry fee online, compete, and win money right then and there.
What’s surprising is that most real money online video game competitions are still operating on the honor system which has led to a lot of cheating. Warzone is a great example of this. Activision had to ban over 100,000 players from Warzone in a single week and they were not even competing for money. That was just the “for fun” play. Simply put, the honor system doesn’t work. For me, the most prominent indicator of this is seeing a marketplace with 500 million users that can’t seem to clear $2B in annual revenue going on 10 plus years now. That says a lot.
Our technology is called Gamers Oasis. It will allow gamers of all skill levels to compete against other players, who are at their same skill level, right from their phones, where they pay an entry fee, compete, and win money back. Gamers Oasis won’t just be for professional players either. Very much to the contrary, the basic idea is that anybody, regardless of skill level, can join, compete, and have a fair and reasonable chance of winning large monetary prizes. Our platform will give beginners the opportunity to compete for thousands of dollars and actually have a reasonable chance of winning, opening up the industry to something that previously was only available to the best of the best, the professionals.
With your extensive experience in the Esports and gaming industry, how do you perceive the current revenue challenges despite the massive user base? What factors contribute to this disparity?
There are a number of reasons for this disparity. Before I answer, I want to point out that there is a comparable industry that has done phenomenally well and has not had to make any excuses for their revenue. Online poker in the United States had a mere 2 million players and was generating $900M a year in the US in 2008. That is compared to our Esports market with 500M players generating a mere $1.38B last year. The global Esports market is 250 times larger than the US online poker market but only generated 50% more money than the poker market. That isn’t just a disparity. That is a tragedy. What is more of a tragedy though is I’ve been to several Esports conferences and most of the people I’ve seen seem to think they’ve accomplished something with these numbers. They are hi-fiving and patting each other on the back with congratulations. Maybe if more of their colleagues would be honest and just speak the truth, which is “hold up there cowboy. These numbers suck. Not only can we do better, but we must. What’s broken?”, then maybe they’d have already taken this market to where it should be. When it comes to players competing for money, developers need to start thinking like wagering entities rather than game development entities. If they had done THAT over the past 10 years, this industry would be a $100B a year industry right now. The good news is with what we are doing, with what FanDuel is doing, and with what others like us are working to do, I think the industry is beginning to find its way onto the right track to getting to where it can get to.
Originally, Esports consisted of single event competitions where players went to an event, paid an entry fee, competed, won their money, and that was it. From the Asteroids world championship tournament in 1980 until 30+ years later, that was Esports! But around 10 years ago, the large developers tried to reinvent the wheel to facilitate online Esports. Rather than sticking with the model that had existed for 30+ years at that point, the model that was proven and that worked, they abruptly tried to make online Esports like an actual sports league, like basketball or football, where players would compete for a season to win prizes at the end of the season rather than at individual events. They were trying to build a model where the professionals played and then audiences watched, and they generated revenue from the audience. While that can be a fine model in some circumstances, unfortunately, the reality is that this model is generating around $2.80 per participant, per year, through ad sales. That just doesn’t compare to that poker model featuring player values at closer to $450 per year domestically and around $205 per player per year globally. In a market where 3 billion people play video games, we want to focus on total inclusion and try to include as many of those players as possible. Whereas the current industry seems to be focused on creating viewers to watch “the best of the best”, we want to create players in everybody. You have to remember, every player is also a viewer. Don’t get me wrong, we will still be streaming everything and focusing on viewers as well, but that’s kind of my point. Our model gets all the same viewers, but exponentially more players at an exponentially more valuable “per player” rate of revenue.
Online poker got it right by featuring hundreds or even thousands of events, every day, fully automated, available 24/7, where the host company charges a fee every time a player buys into a competition. As a result of this model, online poker was generating around $450 per player per year in the United States as compared to the $2.80 per participant per year that the current Esports model is generating. In fact, a company by the name of Skillz followed a model similar to ours and, as a result, generated almost 25% of the global Esports revenue last year despite only having 0.8% of the players. That really says it all right there. That is a terrific real world example of what I am saying.
After 10 years of trying this league-based model for online Esports, game developers need to finally admit that it’s just not working. They need to stand up, say “this failed, and that’s ok. We learned from it”, and then get back to what we know has been proven. It is time to get back to the basics! Back in 1980, when the game “Asteroids” held a world championship tournament, they had the same player turnout as the largest World Series of Poker event in history which happened this year in 2023. More than 10,000 players showed up, in person, from around the globe! Single event tournaments where players pay an entry fee, compete, and can win money back right then and there is what players have always done and is what they want. They don’t want to have to wait 13 weeks to get paid at the end of a season. They don’t want to be forced to travel to compete in a real money tournament. They want simplicity and instant results. If developers will get back to that, utilizing today’s technology to make it online, automated, and available 24/7, they will make exponentially more money and turn this industry around on its head.
How does the introduction of “in-game wagering” capabilities potentially revolutionize the profitability landscape for Esports?
It changes everything. There is nothing else that comes remotely close to generating revenue like this model. If we can cause Esports to achieve comparable results as to online poker, and we can, then we are talking “per player per year” values skyrocketing to the $400 to $500 per year range. Compared to modern successful games clocking in at between $5 – $15 per player per year from ad sales and in-game purchasing, or current Esports values of around $2.80 per participant per year, there’s just no limit to the possibilities once this more profitable option becomes widespread. When games begin realizing the massive difference in returns by adding this feature and having it properly monetized, they will be able to spend a significantly larger amount of money on things that ultimately lead to a better player experience; Customer service, quality control, more aggressive beta testing leading to less bugs on launch, anti-cheating countermeasures which are truly effective, etc. When the difference is this significant, there may come a time where if a game does not feature this capability, it will be very difficult to compete with the quality of games which do due to all of the enhanced capabilities I just mentioned.
In your opinion, what are the ethical considerations when introducing wagering into skill-based video games, especially considering the diverse age demographics of players?
Wagering into skill-based video games has been done since 1980 when Asteroids had their first world championship and more than 10,000 players showed up to compete and hand their entry fees over. From that point in time until now, it has been available to all ages, though sometimes requiring parental consent for those under 16 or 18, depending on the region’s laws.
But when speaking of ethics as it pertains to the diverse age demographics of players, I would have to suggest that ethics do not play a part where age is concerned. Rather, ethics plays a part where skill level is concerned, regardless of age. To address this particular matter, the platform we are designing, “Gamers Oasis,” will match up players based on their skill level to ensure that regardless of your experience you still have a fair and reasonable chance of earning money by competing with us. Whether you are a phenomenal player or just plain out suck at your favorite game, it won’t matter. If we’ve done our job right, both players will have a fair chance of winning big money when competing on our platform. If this is accomplished, then I think we are satisfying all ethical issues here.
To address any concerns with age, kids competing with Esports has been a staple of the sport since its inception. In 2019, 16-year-old Kyle Giersdorf just won $3M competing in Fortnite. I think that the morality of kids competing is something that each family needs to decide for themselves. We live in a society of tech companies that have continuously and increasingly been imposing their vision of morality on the world around them. We want to make sure to stay away from that where this matter is concerned. If you do not want your child to compete, we will have parental safeguards in place to ensure that your wishes are supported and respected. And if you are ok with your child competing, well, we will accommodate that as well.
Esports has seen exponential growth in terms of viewership and participation in the past decade. How do you envision its trajectory in the next 5 years, especially in terms of revenue generation?
There is a lot of chaos where Esports is concerned and this has led to tremendous confusion. With our patent, we have an opportunity to seize a degree of control in this industry. Our desire is not to mold it to our beliefs, but rather to hold the industry true to what we have seen that it wants. Offering league and season based Esports play rather than the single event structure that players had become used to for over 30 years is a really good example of that. So, as we use our patent to get an automated system going where anyone, regardless of skill level, can sign up and enjoy the competition, we expect to see revenue generation going up exponentially throughout the industry as per player value increases alongside this exponential increase in user participation.
Lastly, could you share some insights on how Wamba Technologies plans to collaborate with game developers and Esports organizers to integrate and popularize the “in-game wagering” feature?
We patented the methodology of programming video games so that players could pay an entry fee, compete, and win money back over a computerized network. While we absolutely will offer this “in-game wagering” feature, considering that there are presently around 500 million people who are competing with video games to try and win money in real life, it doesn’t need popularization. I’d say it simply needs visibility.
We will be working with game developers and licensing our patent to them to ensure that more and more games offer this type of competition where players can pay an entry fee online, compete, and win money back. This will help create a degree of consistency across a wide range of games. We intend to eventually put together an advisory board consisting of representatives from the games offering this feature so that we can constantly have our finger on the pulse that is the lifeblood of this industry, the games themselves. We want to work with the developers to ensure that this industry gets to a point where the players are actually worth $400-$500 per player per year or more. Then, we can then focus on taking a significant portion of that money and putting it into things that will ultimately give gamers a better overall experience, things like R&D, security, customer service, anti-cheating, and more.
We spoke to Jason Angelides, President and Co-Founder of Epoxy.ai, about the suppliers impressions of the recent SBC Latinoamerica summit, and why LatAm is the next battle ground for iGaming innovation.
What are some of your key takeaways from the SBC Latinoamerica Summit?
In short, a big takeaway is that gaming is very much alive and well in Latin America. There is a strong sense of excitement about the long-term prospects of the industry in the region and one thing that was clear is that technology and innovation is a key piece of the core strategy moving forward.
In a hyper competitive, emerging environment like Latin America, differentiation is especially critical, and it was noticeable how much interest there was in new and emerging technologies, such as AI, as brands look to use whatever tool they can to stand out.
The untapped potential of the Latin America market is well-documented by now, is there anything specific about the market that excites you and why?
I think it’s no secret that, with a number of emerging or fledgling markets, new technologies will have a huge role to play in how these landscapes fulfil their potential, which makes Latin America really unique.
Gaming is just part of a larger entertainment ecosystem that is thriving in the continent, and the passion of the people and their appetite for new ways of engagement make Latam a tremendous place to innovate and grow the industry.
Heading to Miami as one of the industry’s true pioneers in AI-based personalisation, how do you plan to tailor your offering for the LatAm market?
By definition, AI is a technology that adapts itself to the behaviours of users and automatically tailors presented content to align with an end users’ preferences.
I think the real opportunity in Latin America is to get to a point where AI can bridge multiple forms of entertainment around gaming into a more unified customised user experience that feels connected. If we can achieve this, it will be an incredibly exciting prospect for not just us, but the entire industry.
How do you go about setting yourself apart from other competitors who may have similar interests in the LatAm market?
We’re adamant in our belief that AI is not just a plug and play product, but a collaborative solution that needs to be adapted to the specific requirements of each of the individual organisations we work with. One of our key differentiators is the ability for our platform to be adapted to support those different needs and to drive the key metrics that each of our partners desires.
We take a very hands on approach to adapting our technology and also implementing it in a way that helps the technology grow, so it learns and becomes more valuable across the broader industry.
Can we expect any exciting developments in LatAm from you in the near future?
We don’t want to give too much away, but you can expect to see some announcements in the near future as we bring the Epoxy.ai technology to the Latin American market. It is one that boasts incredible potential, and we’re confident that in a region as diverse and active, our AI solutions will be able to bring a real powerful point of differentiation to operators and suppliers in the region.
BETBY is firmly focused on making a splash in Latin America and recently attended the inaugural SBC Latinoamérica Summit. COO Eva Berkova talks about the key takeaways and plans for the region in 2024.
From a BETBY perspective, what are some of your key takeaways from the SBC Latinoamerica Summit?
After visiting this exhibition, it has become even more evident to us that Latin America rightly deserves to be a key focus for us, and we look forward to making a concerted effort to capitalise on the excitement this market brings. We already have several big partners here, but the region is very dynamic, and we are firmly convinced that we are going the right way, putting LatAm as one of our key focuses.
At the exhibition we saw genuine interest in our product from delegates who know the workings and nuances of the LatAm landscape, and such are the opportunities in Latin America, we do not want to veer away from the territory and enhance our product portfolio to its passionate sports betting audiences.
With a wide range of operators, affiliates, regulators, and many other industry delegates in attendance, were there any key learnings that will influence your decision making for planning a long-term strategy for any expansion into the region?
For some time now we have been planning to introduce BETBY into the local market with a physical presence, and showcase the power and ingenuity of our products. After visiting the exhibition, our opinion was validated, personal connections and everyday communication are the cultural norm in this region, which really appeals to our company, and not only in business terms.
Constant communication is a key characteristic of the people of this region. Visiting the exhibition reaffirmed our belief that in order to strengthen BETBY’s position here, we need to expand our physical presence in the form of our own LatAm office with a Spanish-speaking team.
The untapped potential of the Latin America market is well-documented, what is it about the market that excites BETBY most?
The LatAm market appeals to us because of its breadth and appetite for sports. In this market, there is also a huge opportunity to promote esports. Esports in LatAm is still a niche that is not very saturated with content and offers, as there is a sustained promotion of traditional sports that are hugely loved in the region like basketball, baseball, and soccer.
The potential of the market is truly enormous, without exaggeration. With our mentality and extensive sportsbook solution, BETBY’s products and ethos weave perfectly into the local fabric – both in terms of our company values and business approach.
How do you go about setting yourself apart from other competitors who are targeting the LatAm region?
For much of the LatAm population, sport is their life, exuding passion and love for their favourite teams and individuals. Many championships and tournaments are held here on a regular basis, which are of interest to local bettors. As BETBY has its own trading department, we can offer odds and markets for these local tournaments. This is one of our many unique selling points that sets our company apart.
Esports in LatAm is becoming increasingly popular, how will your Betby.Games offering cater capitalise on this growth?
The role of esports in LatAm is not that big yet, but it certainly has the potential to be. FIFA and Valorant are generally popular here, and BETBY offers three types of FIFA content in addition to a large esports package, which also includes Valorant.
But the greatest interest is in Betby.Games – BETBY’s own product. An AI-powered sports feed with game mechanics that excludes human interference on the outrights, Betby.Games offers fully localised and customisable leagues and tournaments that includes the Libertadores Cup and South American Cup, which are of particular interest to local bettors.
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